Group wants to reconcile dinosaurs, Bible

I'll have to take a look at those later. For reference, the only reason I might say their arguements (in general, not these in particular, having not read them) are suspect is that in a field that relies so much on peer review, I find it hard to accept "scientific" explanations from people unable to convince a significant portion of the scientific community of the accuracy of their findings.

in a field that relies so much on peer review, I find it hard to accept "scientific" explanations from people unable to convince a significant portion of the scientific community of the accuracy of their findings.

I can see the importance of peer review for Science, but it is not logical to dismiss a theory simply because it fails in this one point (Appeal to Authority logical fallacy).

They don't really present it as a theory though, they're basically saying "established science in many fields, especially geology, is wrong", and then attempting to explain why, but not backing it up with peer-reviewed data...it just strikes me the exact thing they're campaigning against (seeing things only through the eyes of your worldview), rather than good science that other scientists (and laymen) would see, and say "Oh, hmm, that's an interesting conclusion, maybe they're right".

The trouble is, in my mind, that they hurt the prospect of creating new scientists with a religious background, because they're insisting on educating their children with "science" beliefs that aren't arrived at in the same way all other scientific beliefs are.

It would be very good for the scientific community to have strongly religious people who are motivated to try and disprove, legitimately, the many things we currently believe that they deem controversial...finding solid results one way or the other would be a very interesting discovery, but currently, I worry that if someone were to find results that pushed further against current Creationist beliefs, that instead of acquiescing to those results, we'd just see another change in position, making it continue to be very hard to reconcile science with certain religious beliefs (and maybe it just isn't possible in some case)

The answers providing in those articles are interesting, and as a non-scientist, I can't say "here's the data that refutes those ideas", but it definitely seems suspect to me that, were their ideas/observations relevant on a grand scale, that the larger scientific community would be actively investigating them (as something like discovering, legitimately, that fossils of dinosaurs are not, in fact, millions of years old, would be a *HUGE* discovery)

Out of curiosity, as you're better versed in the site than I am, do they have answers as to why there are documented histories far further back than the 6,000 year age of Earth referenced several times in those articles?

Vincent, thanks for your good answer. I can agree with most of what you say. I rarely visit Answers in Genesis (just did a quick search last night for the articles I linked to above). Looking at the situation in the USA from my country, it seems that the Creationist thing is much more of a political movement than anything else, so I'm not really prepared to defend AiG. I admit to finding it interesting that they present arguments to mainstream science, and the only counter-argument I've ever heard is that the "real" scientific community rejects them.

Like you, I'm not a scientist, so I only look on at this with interest and curiosity.

Paddy, I've looked at the documents you posted. My response was a little to long, so I've made it a separate article. You can read it here.

forgot to quote this part:

Dinosaurs, according to some Seventh-day Adventist theories, either never existed, their bones were scattered by Satan on earth to confuse people, or they were animals created by God but altered by Satan after the fall of the Garden of Eden.

Dinosaurs, according to some Seventh-day Adventist theories, either never existed, their bones were scattered by Satan on earth to confuse people, or they were animals created by God but altered by Satan after the fall of the Garden of Eden.

Yeah, that quote is pretty weird, even by my standards :-)

What I want to know is just how powerful this Satan character is. I mean, I know he's supposed to be a foul tempter and whatnot, but he can also affect the world to such a degree as to plant bones of animals that never existed? Or even worse, he can forcibly change (evolve?) animals into new and different forms that God never intended?

That's hard to hate, because, seriously, dinosaurs are *awesome*.

What I want to know is just how powerful this Satan character is.

I think you'll find that the Bible presents him as powerful, but subject to God's authority (as the book of Job illustrates). Anything he did would be with God's permission, which is one reason I find the suggestions made above weird.

Maybe Satan's like the 7-year-old kid who annoys his dad so much that his dad (played by God) says "Alright, alright! Whatever! Stick feathers on those dinosaur things for all I care!"

and Satan said "Yay, Daddy! Feathered dinosaurs! That'll really confuse the hell into people!"

Did Satan's work spill over into the still living?

Romans 8:19-22: "For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now."

Not to sound rude, but can you translate that into layman's terms? Who's the creature?

Sorry, Jack. I use routinely the KJV, but I know it's English is sort of archaic. Here goes the same passage in the NIV:

"The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time."

Thank you for the translation, but I'm afraid my training in literary allegory isn't really up to par. :-p

Just to make sure I understand things:

The creation is... the process of creation.
The sons of God will be revealed, at which point all that is created will bask in glorious freedom, instead of the imperfect bondage of the present time?
What, exactl, is frustrating creation?

Is that close or am I out in left field?

Is Satan the creation?
Will Satan be saved when the sons of God come?
Is God subjecting Satan to frustration?

Jack, for your benefit, here goes Paddy's Expanded Translation® (read and accept at your own risk, and do not quote anywhere where your reputation is important to you).

"The physical world that God created awaits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed, when God will renew all this and establish a New Earth and a New Heavens. But why, says Jack, is there this expectation? Well, it's because the physical world that God created has been subject to death and decay. Not because it chose that of itself, but because God Himself put it in this situation of travail. But is that situation for ever and ever, you may ask? No, the physical world that God created is awaiting the day when it will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God (that is, the freedom that the children of God will experience when redemption is accomplished is a freedom that the physical world that God created will share - a freedom from death and decay). We know (not everyone knows this - it's our little secret) that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time."

Well, joking aside, this passage is based on the doctrine of the Fall. You can condense it thus:

When humanity (through Adam) sinned, the whole physical creation was cursed. When humanity is finally redeemed (through Christ), the whole physical creation will be blessed.

The world doesn't seem all that cursed to me...but then, I wasn't writing a book in the middle of the desert either :)

Paddy, thanks for the further-dumbed-down translation. :-)

But, going back to my quote that you originally responded to: does this cursing actually have to do with Satan?

Even in your excellent interpretation, I still don't clearly see it.

P.S. - Dude, I'm in a Biblical interpretation. Sweetness.

But, going back to my quote that you originally responded to: does this cursing actually have to do with Satan?

It has to do with Satan, but only indirectly (according to my interpretation, of course :-) Here go some quick answers to your questions in #7.4:

1. Is Satan the creation? No. He was also created, but that is not the subject of Romans 8.

2. Will Satan be saved when the sons of God come? No. "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" (Revelations 20:10).

3. Is God subjecting Satan to frustration? No (see question 1).

Hope I didn't misunderstand you.

P.S. - Dude, I'm in a Biblical interpretation. Sweetness.

If you're interested, I can make you a permanent character in my forthcoming Expanded Translation®, with a complete characterization :-)

If you want to believe in 'Early-Earth Creation' fine, okay, but don't call it science unless you actually follow the principles that the discipline was founded on, i.e., the scientific method.

Switchoff, I agree.